Was Socrates a wise man or wicked guy?
苏格拉底是智者还是恶人？
Zachary Davis: In 399 BC, the Greek philosopher Socrates, was on trial.
扎卡里·戴维斯：公元前399年，希腊哲学家苏格拉底接受了审判。
Steven Smith: Socrates is about 70 years old at the time of his trial. He’s lived virtually his entire life in Athens and he is brought up on charges of disbelieving the gods of the city and corrupting the young. Today, we might say this is a treason trial.
史蒂芬·史密斯：审判时，苏格拉底约七十岁。他基本上一生都生活在雅典，后来被指控不信雅典的神灵以及蛊惑雅典的年轻人。这项指控放在今天可能类似于叛国罪。
Zachary Davis: Socrates believed in free-thought. He sought truth by questioning everything, including society. His philosophies were political. They were seen as a threat to the ancient Athenian government, which felt that Socrates was undermining democracy and corrupting society.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底信奉自由思想。他质疑一切，甚至质疑社会，以期寻求真理。他的一些哲学思想与政治相关，这些思想被认为威胁到了雅典政权。雅典政府认为他在破坏民主、蛊惑全社会。
Steven Smith: But it’s revealing that the person we think of as in many ways the first political philosopher, is also the subject of what might be thought of also was one of the first treason trials, and that already sets up a revealing problem, that there is something dangerous about this activity of philosophizing and of political philosophizing in particular. What is it about Socrates’s activity that suddenly have become too appears so dangerous or problematic that he is brought up on treason charges.
史蒂芬·史密斯：发人深省的是，这位被我们视作史上首位政治哲学家的伟大人物，竟然也是史上第一位被指控叛国罪的人。这体现了一个令人深思的问题，那就是谈论哲学，尤其是政治哲学多少有些危险。苏格拉底谈论的哪些哲学思想，让他身陷险境，甚至被指控叛国罪？
Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Stephen Smith, a professor of political philosophy at Yale University, to discuss Plato’s Apology.
扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和耶鲁大学政治哲学教授史蒂芬·史密斯一起讨论柏拉图的《申辩篇》。
Zachary Davis: Plato is believed to have been born around the year 428 BC, in Athens, Greece. He was a student and follower of Socrates who was roughly forty years his senior. Although Socrates did not consider himself a teacher, he did have many devoted followers who he shared his philosophical ideas with.
扎卡里·戴维斯：柏拉图据说于公元前428年左右出生在希腊雅典。他是苏格拉底的学生和追随者，比苏格拉底小四十岁左右。尽管苏格拉底不觉得自己是老师，但他确实有许多忠实的追随者，聆听苏格拉底分享自己的哲学观点。
Zachary Davis: Unlike Socrates, who never wrote anything down, Plato was quite prolific. He wrote approximately thirty works and pioneered a new form of writing： the dialogue. In his dialogues, he explored philosophical ideas through real and imagined conversations.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底从没写过任何书面形式的作品。柏拉图则不同，他著作颇丰，写了大约三十本书，还创造了一种新的文体形式，那就是对话体。在对话体作品中，他借助真实的与想象的对话探讨哲学观点。
Zachary Davis: Plato’s Apology is one of these dialogues. It is an account of Socrates’s trial, documented by Plato, who was there that day. The dialogue includes Socrates’s defense speech to a jury of roughly 500 Athenians. What does it mean that it’s called The Apology?
扎卡里·戴维斯：柏拉图的《申辩篇》就是他的众多对话体作品之一，记录了苏格拉底审判当天的场景。审判时柏拉图就在现场，同时在场的还有由约五百名雅典公民组成的陪审团。而《申辩篇》便是苏格拉底对陪审团说的辩护词。“申辩篇”这个名字有何涵义？
Steven Smith: Apology doesn’t mean exactly what we think of it as meaning today. He’s not apologizing in the sense of saying, I’m sorry or I regret what I’ve done. An apology is literally a defense speech. The defense of Socrates, the defense speech of Socrates would be in some ways a kind of more up-to-date translation.
史蒂芬·史密斯：《申辩篇》的英文直接翻译过来意思是“道歉”，但在这里并非“道歉”之意，苏格拉底并不是在为自己的言行道歉。它的实际意思是辩护演讲，将它翻译成“苏格拉底的辩护演讲”或许更符合我们当今的理解。
Zachary Davis: So let’s now go into the structure of the text. How does he arrange the story? How long is it? What, how is it constructed?
扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来看看这篇演讲的结构吧。他是如何叙述的？总共有多长？全文结构是怎样的？
Steven Smith: By the standards of Platonic dialogues, a relatively short dialogue. It’s a dialogue that proceeds in a couple of different acts. The main act, you might say, is Socrates’s defense speech itself.
史蒂芬·史密斯：柏拉图对话体作品都相对比较短，但这篇对话的整个对话分为好几部分，主体部分可以说是苏格拉底的自我辩护。
What’s Athenians’ long-lasting prejudice against Socrates?
长久以来，雅典人对苏格拉底有何偏见？
Zachary Davis: The text begins with this defense speech. Socrates was brought to trial by three men: Anytus, a rich, distinguished Athenian and son of a politician, Meletus, who was essentially Anytus’s puppet, and Lycon, a democratic politician. They charged Socrates with corrupting the youth and failing to acknowledge the gods of the state. But these three were not Socrates’s first critics.
扎卡里·戴维斯：全文以这份辩护开头。指控苏格拉底的有三个人，分别是：阿尼图斯，他是一个有名的雅典富翁，父亲是一位政治家；美利图斯，他基本上受阿尼图斯的操纵；第三位则是民主政治家莱孔。这仨人指控苏格拉底蛊惑年轻人，且不信奉雅典众神。但这仨人并非苏格拉底最早的批评者。
Steven Smith: To me at least, the most interesting part of his defense speech is the way he divides his accusers, the people who brought this accusation against me today, Anytus and Meletus, are really, he says, drawing on a longstanding prejudice that Athenians have had against me for a long time, that was brought against me by a famous poet, he says. That poet was Aristophanes, who had written a play about Socrates called The Clouds.
史蒂芬·史密斯：至少在我看来，辩护词中最有意思的是看他如何一一反驳这三个指控者。他说，虽然看上去是阿尼图斯和美利图斯在指控我，但他们其实也是受雅典人对我长期偏见的影响。而这个偏见的始作俑者，就是著名诗人阿里斯托芬，他曾写过一部嘲讽我的戏剧，名字叫《云》。
Zachary Davis: One of the rumors about Socrates was that he tried to provide physical explanations for things that were usually the business of the gods. In The Clouds, Aristophanes portrays Socrates as a charlatan philosopher—a fraud. He shows Socrates floating in the air, speculating about spiritual matters. Socrates claims this is a lie and asks the jury if any of them has heard him speak about such things.
扎卡里·戴维斯：有个关于苏格拉底的谣言是，他试图对一些与神相关的东西做出客观的具象解释。在《云》中，阿里斯托芬将苏格拉底描绘成一个充数的哲学家、一个骗子。他说，苏格拉底不过是飘在半空，猜测着与神有关的事情。苏格拉底则说这就是一派胡言，并询问陪审团中是否真的有人听到自己说过这样的话。
Steven Smith: But what this shows is that from the very beginning, from his earliest investigations, Socrates was shown as something of a problem. And there also in the Apology, Socrates alludes to what will become or what is a central theme of his work, what he calls the old quarrel between poetry and philosophy.
史蒂芬·史密斯：不过这表明，自打早先对苏格拉底展开调查的时候，人们就觉得他有问题。《申辩篇》中，苏格拉底暗示了自己哲学思想的核心主题，那就是诗歌与哲学之间的古老争议。
Zachary Davis: The poets at the time represented standardized thought, along with the politicians, orators, and artisans. They were considered the wise, important people of Athens, and society looked up to them. But Socrates questioned their thinking. This made him very unpopular among many Athenians.
扎卡里·戴维斯：诗人在当时和政治家、演说家和匠人一样，代表着正统思想。他们被看作雅典富有智慧、举足轻重的人物，雅典社会对他们充满敬意。但苏格拉底质疑了他们的思想，这让许多雅典人对他颇为不满。
Steven Smith: Aristophanes, you might say the inheritor of the poetic tradition. And Socrates, the inheritor in many ways a creator of the kind of you might call newer, more fangled than traditional philosophy.
史蒂芬·史密斯：阿里斯托芬可谓诗歌传统的继承者，而苏格拉底在很多方面可谓是开创者，比如开创了一套比传统哲学更新奇的哲学。
Zachary Davis: Socrates then turns and speaks to his new accusers, the ones who brought him to trial. He says their minds have been poisoned by these deep rooted prejudices.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底转身和这些将他告上法庭的新一代控诉者说话。他说，这些根深蒂固的偏见毒害了他们的思想。
Zachary Davis: He addresses the first charge, corrupting the youth. He tells the jury that this complaint really began years earlier when his friend Chaerephon paid a visit to the Oracle of Delphi. Chaerephon asked the Oracle who was the wisest of all men. The Oracle responded, “There is no man wiser than Socrates.” Socrates interpreted this as a riddle because he knew that he knew nothing.
扎卡里·戴维斯：他反驳了第一项指控，即蛊惑年轻人。他告诉陪审团，这种怨言其实始于几年前，当时他的朋友凯勒丰去德尔斐神庙寻求神谕，想知道谁是最有智慧的人。神谕表明：“没有人比苏格拉底更有智慧。”苏格拉底觉得这是个谜语，因为他觉得自己其实很无知。
Zachary Davis: To test the riddle, he set out to find someone wiser than himself. He questioned the so-called ‘wise men’ in town： the poets, artisans, orators, and politicians. He tested their wisdom and found that while they thought themselves wise, in fact, they knew very little.
扎卡里·戴维斯：为了检验这个谜语，他开始寻找比自己聪明的人。他询问了城邦里所谓的“智者”，也就是那些诗人、匠人、演说家和政治家，检验了他们的智慧程度，发现尽管他们觉得自己富有智慧，但实际上他们都所知甚少。
Zachary Davis: Socrates interpreted the Oracle’s message to mean that because the so-called ‘wise men’ actually knew nothing, then he must be wiser because he was aware of his own ignorance. The wise men thought they were wise but Socrates knew that he knew nothing, which made him the wisest of all.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底认为神谕的意思是，由于所谓的“智者”其实很无知，所以苏格拉底其实还是更聪明一点的，因为至少他知道自己的无知之处。“智者”觉得自己富有智慧，但苏格拉底清楚自己所知无几，这就显得苏格拉底反而是最有智慧的人。
Zachary Davis: I remember once a teacher of mine talked about how annoying Socrates would have seemed to his fellow citizens, and really in a different light, he’s just going around mocking everybody constantly. So you can find some sympathy with his fellow citizens who, like, probably don’t quite know what to make of this guy.
扎卡里·戴维斯：我记得我的一位老师曾说过，在雅典人看来，苏格拉底是多么烦人。因为从他们的角度看，他在不断嘲笑所有人。这样一来，你也会对他的同胞感到些许同情，因为他们真的不知道要拿这个家伙如何是好。
Steven Smith: Right. I mean, one of the things that comes out is his mockery. Another term for that is his irony, that made him eventually seem very, to his fellow citizens, very unsympathetic in his attitude of challenging received opinions.
史蒂芬·史密斯：没错，他们感到无奈的原因之一就是苏格拉底的嘲讽，或者说挖苦。最终他这种挑战既定观念的态度让他的同胞觉得，没必要再对他施以任何同情。
Zachary Davis: While he was questioning the wise men of Athens, Socrates caught the attention of the younger generation. Many of them followed in his footsteps and began doing the same thing.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底质询雅典“智者”的做法引起年轻人的关注。他们中许多人都纷纷效仿苏格拉底。
Steven Smith: And it became clear he seemed to be a kind of pied piper of Athens, particularly attracting young people who clearly enjoyed and reveled, as young people always do, of seeing their elders mocked and ridiculed by Socrates. There is something deeply interactive and intriguing about that as indeed there was.
史蒂芬·史密斯：显然苏格拉底似乎成了雅典的号召者，尤其吸引了很多年轻人，他们往往乐于看到老一辈的人被苏格拉底嘲弄。年轻人的脾性总是这样。不过这当中也有很多深入互动的、有意思的地方，事实确实如此。
Steven Smith: And yet, for many people and I think there’s more than a grain of truth to this. His mockery seemed in many ways not to lead anywhere, it would do something not just skeptical, but destructive about it. He seemed very adept at undermining, we might say today, deconstructing received values and opinions, but without really replacing anything.And that constant undermining and deconstructing of opinion became to be saying not only is annoying and irritating, but as dangerous to the opinions on which society rests.
史蒂芬·史密斯：不过对很多人来说，讨厌苏格拉底倒也不无道理。尽管在很多方面，苏格拉底的嘲讽看似并没有导致任何后果，但其实不仅会让人心生怀疑，还极具破坏性。按如今的话来说，他似乎很擅长动摇固有的价值观与观点，但又没有真正推翻任何观点。不过这种对既有观点的持续破坏与解构不仅让人觉得恼火，同时也动摇了建立在这些观点之上的社会的根基。
Was Socrates a devout man or an atheist?
苏格拉底心向神灵还是相信无神论？
Zachary Davis: Socrates then proceeds to defend the second charge against him, that he is an atheist. He does this through a cross-examination of Meletus, one of his three accusers. In this famous interrogation, Socrates leads Meletus to contradict himself. Meletus claims that Socrates is an atheist and follows different gods than those recognized by the Athenian state.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底开始反驳对自己的第二项指控，那就是认为他是无神论者。他反驳的方式是质询三位控告者之一的美利图斯。在这场有名的质询中，苏格拉底诱使美利图斯自相矛盾。美利图斯声称，苏格拉底是无神论者，但又说他信奉雅典城邦所不承认的神。
Zachary Davis: Socrates says this is illogical. How can he be an atheist and recognize other gods at the same time? Socrates also reminds Meletus that he follows the Oracle’s prophecy, that he is the wisest of all men. Since the god Apollo speaks through the Oracle of Delphi, Socrates also acknowledges Apollo.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底说，这完全不合逻辑，自己怎么可能既是无神论者，又同时信奉别的神。他还提醒美利图斯，自己听从德尔斐神庙的神谕，相信自己是最有智慧的人。而德尔斐神庙供奉的是阿波罗，所以自己也信奉阿波罗。
Steven Smith: So begins with Socrates referencing this old quarrel and distinguishing the first generation of critics represented by Aristophanes, from that current generation of critics represented by an Anytus and Meletus who have built on this, you might say prejudice against Socrates, but have kind of turned it in in a somewhat different direction, direction of disbelief of the gods and corrupting of the young.
史蒂芬·史密斯：所以苏格拉底从诗歌与哲学的古老争议谈起，指明了前后两代控诉者的区别。以阿里斯托芬为代表的前一代人仅仅是对苏格拉底有偏见；而以阿尼图斯和美利图斯为代表的后一代人在前一代人的基础上，给苏格拉底安上了不敬神灵和蛊惑青年的罪名。
Zachary Davis: Near the end of his defense speech, Socrates tells the jury that he is doing a service to Athens. He compares himself to a gadfly, who stings the lazy horse that is the Athenian state. Without his stinging, the state is inclined to drift into a deep sleep. Although it may be uncomfortable and irritating, his role is necessary for finding truth. So, they didn’t buy it. They didn’t like his defense. What happens?
扎卡里·戴维斯：在辩护词快结束的地方，苏格拉底告诉陪审团，他是在为雅典服务。他将自己比作一只牛虻，叮咬着雅典这头懒洋洋的牛。他要是不去叮咬，整个城邦就会沉沉睡去。尽管被叮咬很不痛快，但要想发现真理，他的做法就必不可少。然而陪审团对此并不买账。他们不喜欢他的辩词。这是怎么回事？
Steven Smith: He continues to dig. I think quite intentionally. A much deeper hole for himself than in many ways the charges even suggested. So in this way, the speech writing is very far from being an apology in our ordinary sense of that term, than really a defense of the life of the philosopher and what philosophy does.
史蒂芬·史密斯：苏格拉底有意继续深究下去，其程度如此之深，甚至在很多方面都超出了指控所影射的地步。就这一点而言，这篇文章远远不同于我们通常意义上的致歉，反而更像是在为这位哲学家的生活以及哲学的作用作辩护。
Zachary Davis: After Socrates’ defense speech, the jury votes on his sentence. They find him guilty by a narrow margin. According to Athenian law at the time, both the prosecutor and defendant have to come up with a punishment for the charges. Typically, the defendant would want to come up with a punishment that was not as severe as the prosecutor’s, but severe enough so the jury would pick theirs—the lesser of two evils.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底做完辩护演讲之后，陪审团投票对他进行判决。最终以极小的票数差别判处他有罪。根据当时的雅典法律，原告和被告都必须针对指控提出相应的处罚方式。通常被告想出的处罚方式不会像原告那么严厉，但也必须足够严厉，这样陪审团才有可能从两个办法中选取相对较轻的那一种。
Zachary Davis: Meletus chooses the punishment of death. But Socrates believes he shouldn’t get any punishment because he hasn’t done anything wrong. He chooses what he believes to be fair compensation for his public service to Athens.
扎卡里·戴维斯：美利图斯提出要判苏格拉底死刑，但苏格拉底觉得自己不应该受到任何惩罚，因为自己什么也没做错。他根据自己对雅典的贡献，提出了自认为公正的处罚方式。
Steven Smith: They ask him to choose something and he says, what I really want is I want to be honored with dinner at the high table of Athens. I want dinner there every night, you know. So, you know, by this time he is mocking the seriousness of it clearly.
史蒂芬·史密斯：他们要求他选择想要的处罚方式，而他说，我真正想要的其实是被赏赐在雅典的高脚桌旁就餐，每餐都在那儿吃。他这么说，显然是在讥讽处罚的严肃性。
Zachary Davis: Socrates stands by his role as a philosopher. He never apologizes and instead, one last time, defends philosophy while facing the real possibility of death.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底坚持自己哲学家的使命。他自始至终都没有道歉；直到最后一刻，他都在捍卫哲学的尊严，同时他也明白，这么做会有性命之忧。
A short but glorious life or a long but humdrum life?
选择短暂而荣耀的一生，还是漫长却乏味的一生？
Steven Smith: The final straw in the speech is, maybe the most famous sentence of the speech, when he tells the Athenians, that the unexamined life is not worth living. And yet he can tell the Athenians that only the philosophic life, that is to say only the examined life is worth living. What does it say to people? Is unless you’re engaged as I am in the examination and interrogation ideas of my own and those around us. Your life is useless. It’s meaningless. It didn’t mean anything.
史蒂芬·史密斯：我觉得辩护词中为苏格拉底招来杀身之祸的最后一点或许是这句话——“未经省察的的生活不值得过”。他告诉雅典人，只有哲学式的、常常自省的生活才值得过。这对人们来说意味着什么？意味着除非你和我一样审视、诘问自己和周围人，不然你的生活就了无意义。
Steven Smith: I mean, with that statement, you might say he signs his death warrant and in a way, because he really does. Far from telling the Athenians that I’m doing you good, which he does claim to be doing. He claims to be exercised and kind of fruitful, useful role as a gadfly. I’m kind of awaken you, I’m a spur to your critical self-reflection. But he ends up telling them that only I am leading a worthy human life.
史蒂芬·史密斯：他那句话一出口，就等于给自己判了死刑。从某方面讲确实如此。他并没有直接告诉雅典人在为他们好，虽然他也是这么声称的，不过他表述的方式是把自己比作孜孜不倦、硕果累累、立下汗马功劳的牛虻。他说，我在叮咬你、唤醒你，激励你自我反思。但最后他又说，只有我过着有意义的生活。
Zachary Davis: Socrates finally says that if his proposed punishment must in fact be a punishment, it should be a fine. He doesn’t have much money but agrees he could pay one hundred drachmas. Some of his wealthy supporters chime in and offer to raise the price to three thousand drachmas, hoping the increased fine would sway the jury to spare Socrates’s life.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底最后说道，如果必须要惩罚自己，那惩罚的方式得是罚款。他自己没有多少钱，不过支付一百（德拉克马）个银币还是可以的。他的一些富有的追随者打断了他，提出可以将罚金增加到三千个银币，希望此举能让陪审团饶过苏格拉底的性命。
Zachary Davis: But it was too little too late. The jury voted for his death. Athenian law stated that death sentences were to be carried out by drinking poison. Before he is carried off to prison, he addresses both sides of the jury one last time.
扎卡里·戴维斯：但这仍然是杯水车薪，也为时已晚。陪审团还是投票判了苏格拉底死刑。雅典法律规定死刑要以喝毒酒的方式执行。在被关进监狱之前，他最后一次向陪审团的两派致辞。
Zachary Davis: He tells those who voted for his death that they have to bear the criticisms of those who voted to acquit him. He says that he could have saved himself by weeping at their feet and saying whatever was necessary for his acquittal, but that he would be disgracing himself. He says the real goal is not to outrun death, but to outrun wickedness. He acknowledges that death has outrun him, but wickedness has outrun them.
扎卡里·戴维斯：他告诉那些投票赞成死刑的人，他们会承受投票赞成自己无罪的人对他们的指责。他说，自己若是痛哭流涕，说些场面话为自己脱罪，或许便能免于一死。但那样自己会觉得丢脸。他说，我真正的目的不是要战胜死亡，而是要战胜邪恶。他承认自己不得不向死亡低头，但投票赞成死刑的诸位却向邪恶低头了。
Zachary Davis: Socrates then addresses those who voted for his acquittal. He tells them that the divine voice that usually warns him against harm, stayed silent throughout the trial. He says perhaps death is a blessing, and should not be feared. He predicts it is either a deep restful sleep, or a transition to an afterlife where he will be among the great figures of the past. Why do you think he was so committed to being a martyr?
扎卡里·戴维斯：然后，苏格拉底向投票赞成无罪的人致辞。他告诉他们，神灵常常在耳畔告诫自己，审判的时候要保持沉默，否则容易害了自己。他说，或许死亡是一种恩赐，无需对其惶恐不安。他猜测死亡要么只是一场予人安宁的长眠，要么就是前往来世的过渡之步，而那时他会成为史上众多杰出人物之一。您觉得他为什么要坚持殉道？
Steven Smith: Socrates was 70 by this time, you could even say by this time he had one foot in the grave and he wanted to have a martyr’s death, a philosopher’s death. You know, in many ways, a kind of imitation of Achilles in the Iliad who was offered a short life and a glorious one or a long life, long but humdrum life. And Socrates wanted to take on, in many ways, the martyrs role.
史蒂芬·史密斯：当时苏格拉底已经大概七十岁了，可以说已经一只脚踏进坟墓了。他想要殉道，想要誓死捍卫哲学的尊严。就像《伊利亚特》中的阿喀琉斯一样，是选择短暂却充满荣耀的一生，还是选择漫长却单调的一生。在很多方面，苏格拉底想要的是殉道的一生。
Zachary Davis: Socrates spends his final hours in a jail cell accompanied by several of his followers and students, including Plato. As ordered by the state, Socrates takes his own life by drinking a poison made out of a deadly plant called hemlock. His final hours and death are depicted in great detail in another one of Plato’s works written decades later called Phaedo.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底在监狱中度过了最后的时光，陪伴他的是他的追随者和学生，其中就有柏拉图。按照雅典陪审团的命令，苏格拉底要喝下用毒芹制成的毒酒，以这种方式来自杀。几十年后，柏拉图在另一篇文章《斐多篇》中详细记录了苏格拉底最后的时光以及死亡经过。
Steven Smith: His life is beautified in a certain way and his death is beautified. We see him at the very end of his life offering elevating speeches about immortality of the soul while waiting for the hemlock to set in. He’s given a true martyr’s death, which has remained throughout Western history, a kind of model of how to die. So Socrates not only give us a model of how to live or what he thought was the best way of life. He showed us how to die as well.
史蒂芬·史密斯：他生活的时光以及死亡经过都在一定程度上被美化了。我们看到，在生命的尽头，他在等毒酒送来的时候，还在发表关于灵魂永恒的演讲。他确实像一个殉道士一样从容赴死。这种殉道精神在西方历史上一直得以传承，成为了光荣赴死的典范。所以苏格拉底不仅为我们树立了榜样，告诉我们什么才是最好的生活方式，还告诉我们要如何直面死亡。
Zachary Davis: But why? Why do you think the city rulers didn’t just ignore him? Why do you think they really felt compelled to put him on trial? And eventually, you know, they didn’t back down. They did kill him.
扎卡里·戴维斯：可是您觉得为什么雅典统治者不直接无视他呢？为什么他们觉得必须把他送上法庭？最后您也知道，他们并没有手软，还是判处了他死刑。
Steven Smith: You might say here is this old guy, 70. He’s lived a pretty long life. I mean, why not just let him go on? Ignore him. Let him go on. He’s not going to live that much longer anyway. And I’m sure many people felt that way.The trial of Socrates took place in the year 399 BC, only a few years prior to that in 404, so five years before, Athens had been defeated in its nearly 30 years, what you might call an almost 30 years’ war with its chief rival, Sparta.
史蒂芬·史密斯：你可能会说，这可是个七十岁的老人，这么高寿，为什么不让他继续活下去？无视他，饶他一命吧，反正他也时日不多了。我敢说很多人都是这么想的。对苏格拉底的审判发生在公元前399年。五年前，也就是公元前404年，雅典刚刚结束了一场近三十年的战争，被最主要的敌对城邦斯巴达击败。
Zachary Davis: This thirty years war is known as the Peloponnesian War. After Athens was defeated, Sparta established an oligarchy and the city was ruled for roughly eight months by a group known as the Thirty Tyrants. They ordered that anyone in Athens who opposed their regime would be killed or exiled. Socrates stayed in Athens during this rule and was therefore associated with supporting the Thirty Tyrants.
扎卡里·戴维斯：这场持续三十年的战争被称为伯罗奔尼撒战争。雅典战败后，斯巴达在雅典建立了寡头政治，雅典在八个月里都被“三十僭主”所统治。三十僭主下令，雅典城内任何反对他们统治的人都会被处死或流放。苏格拉底在此期间仍然待在雅典，因此有人怀疑他或许在支持三十僭主。
Steven Smith: It does seem to suggest that Socrates was associated from the standpoint of the city of Athens with some very questionable company. In 401, I believe it was the oligarchy of the Thirty was overthrown, a democracy or the democracy was restored. And it was under this restored democracy that the trial of the day, that the trial of Socrates took place.
史蒂芬·史密斯：雅典人觉得，这似乎意味着苏格拉底与这个可疑的政治集团有什么关系。公元前401年，三十僭主被推翻，民主派重新掌权。于是在重建民主制度的背景下，人们对苏格拉底进行了审判。
Steven Smith: So once you begin to see the context of this, an Athenian defeat, the imposition of a Spartan-led oligarchy, and then the restoration of a kind of unstable democratic regime. Socrates might not look like such a totally innocent bystander to this, but someone who is really questioning the basic principles, the basic assumptions of Democratic Athens.
史蒂芬·史密斯：所以一旦你了解到这层背景，知道雅典人战败了，在斯巴达人的支持下建立起寡头政治，之后又重建起了一个尚不稳固的民主政权。在旁人眼里，苏格拉底似乎并不像是一个全然无辜的旁观者，反而像是在质疑民主制雅典的基本原则。
How did his ideas inspire Thoreau and MLK?
他的思想如何激励了梭罗和马丁·路德·金？
Zachary Davis: How was the text read over the last few thousand years? What are some moments where we can trace a direct line of influence by the institutions and culture that we have?
扎卡里·戴维斯：过去几千年里，人们如何看待《申辩篇》？哪些时候我们可以从制度与文化中看到它的直接影响？
Steven Smith: When we’re talking about the way in which the trial of Socrates’ figures into kind of the long arc of Western history, one of the ways in which Socrates has remained in many ways alive and heroic is in the tradition of civil disobedience. He was a hero for Thoreau. Obviously both, probably the most famous chap in civil disobedience in, certainly in American literature.
史蒂芬·史密斯：至于苏格拉底的审判如何在漫漫历史长河中影响着西方，其中一种影响便是，人们传承了他的英雄气概，形成了“公民不服从”的传统。他是梭罗心目中的英雄，而梭罗可谓是美国文学史上最有名的倡导“公民不服从”的人。
Zachary Davis: Henry David Thoreau was a 19th century American philosopher, poet, and essayist. One of his most famous works is an essay called Civil Disobedience, in which he argues for disobedience against unjust governments. Similar to Socrates, he believed individuals should not tolerate an unjust government that overrules their own morals, forcing them to perpetuate injustice. He believed citizens should stand up to such governments.
扎卡里·戴维斯：亨利·戴维·梭罗是19世纪的美国哲学家、诗人和随笔作家，他最著名的作品之一是《论公民的不服从》。在这篇随笔中，他主张反对不公正的政府。与苏格拉底类似，他认为若是一个政府与公民的道德观念相左、不公正且迫使公民永远容忍不公，那么公民就不应该容忍这样的政府。他相信公民应当起来反抗这样的政府。
Steven Smith: When I started college was during the Vietnam War and there was a lot of talk in the air about civil resistance defying the draft. Socrates was again hauled out. I remember my first introduction to Socrates was in a class where the context of that class was resistance to the draft. And Socrates was enlisted into the cause of resistance to the Vietnam War. Socrates was used many ways very admirably by Martin Luther King in his resistance to Southern segregation statutes during the civil rights era. He was used by Gandhi in his resistance to British imperial rule in South Africa and India.
史蒂芬·史密斯：我刚上大学的时候，越南战争还在进行，当时有很多人以“公民不服从”为由反对抽签征兵制。苏格拉底的思想再次被人们引用。我记得我第一次介绍苏格拉底是在一堂课上，那时候我们全班人都反对抽签征兵制。所以说，苏格拉底影响了反对越南战争征兵的运动。而且在民权运动时期，马丁·路德·金在反对美国南方种族隔离制度的时候，曾以非常钦佩的口吻谈到了苏格拉底。此外，甘地反对英国在南非与印度的殖民统治时，也曾引用过苏格拉底的思想。
Steven Smith: So Socrates very much figures into not just the philosophic canon, think of Spinoza and Thomas Moore as examples, but clearly he figures into, I think, very prominently into the tradition of civil disobedience and the way in which in the American political tradition. Civil disobedience is very much a part of our kind of political DNA and Socrates is there.
史蒂芬·史密斯：苏格拉底的观点不仅影响了斯宾诺莎、托马斯·摩尔等哲学家，显然还推动了“公民不服从”传统以及美国政治传统的形成。“公民不服从”已经成了美国政治生活不可磨灭的一部分，这展现了苏格拉底的影响。
Zachary Davis: And is that because he witnesses that there are higher values or higher ideals than the status quo and that he was willing to die for those ideals?
扎卡里·戴维斯：是不是因为他发现，有一些比现有规则更崇高的价值观和理念，所以才愿意为这些理念而牺牲？
Steven Smith: When, you know, he was invoked by the protesters against Vietnam, we certainly weren’t invoking Socrates’ claim that only the philosophic life is worth living. I mean, that’s the challenge.I mean, because Socrates does bring out, as you point out, a resistance based on a much higher, you know, an extraordinarily high principle.
史蒂芬·史密斯：越南战争的反对者引用了苏格拉底的观点，当然他们没有引用那句“只有哲学式的生活才值得度过”。那样很有难度，因为苏格拉底曾指出，要基于一个崇高得多的原则，来反对现有规则。
Steven Smith: It’s not just one that’s based on freedom of expression. He’s not invoking anything like what we would think of as a First Amendment right. But he invokes a principle of the philosophic life is the only way worth living, as it is his ground for a kind of principled resistance or principle of resistance to authority. And that’s a very high standard that very few, if any of us, are able or willing to live up to.
史蒂芬·史密斯：这个原则不仅仅是言论自由，他说的不是美国宪法第一修正案里承认的这类权利。他所说的原则是：只有哲学式的生活才值得度过。这才是他认为的反抗权威所依据的核心原则。这是个非常高标准的原则，如果有人遵守的话，估计也只有很少的人愿意。
Zachary Davis: Socrates was disobedient because he refused to live any other way than as a philosopher. His disobedience continues to serve as a model for resistance today, but also raises some new questions. What about this text’s influence on ideas of justice or legal matters in Western life?
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底拒绝服从，因为他只愿意以哲学家的方式来生活。他的不服从精神仍然激励着西方如今的反抗运动，不过也带来了一些问题。下面我们来谈谈另一个问题吧，《申辩篇》对西方的法律与司法思想有什么影响？
Steven Smith: It takes up the theme of justice, you might say, sort of indirectly, in that it posits a at the core of the dialogue, a tension between, you might say, the needs of individual moral life, a life kind of moral integrity, and the demands of the community.And in that way, it brings up kind of indirectly the question of justice. What does a just person do when confronted with an unjust demand? This is not really a formula, quite an answer given to that, but Socrates does bring up the idea that there are demands that society makes on us that can be rightfully or justly resisted.
史蒂芬·史密斯：可以这么说，《申辩篇》探讨了公正这个话题，因为这篇对话体文章的核心就是如何处理个人良知、个人道德需求以及社会需求之间的冲突。它以这种方式间接提出了公正这个话题。一个公正的人在面对不公正的要求时会怎么做？它没有给出什么方案，没有对这个问题作答，但苏格拉底确实提出了一个观点，那就是：若是社会强加给我们一些要求，那拒绝它们完全是正当的。
Steven Smith: And that’s one of the, I think, an issue that you see in Thoreau and others who, you know, faced with what they deemed an unjust law or any of the civil resisters, you know, can be Vietnam. One of the problems with that is Plato doesn’t give us a very clear idea of when resistance is justified and when it’s not. Of course, it’s easy for us to be on the sides of MLK and Gandhi and even Thoreau when they are asked to do certain things. But take another example, I think probably more controversial, someone who invokes the right to the voice of conscience to do something when the state or the authorities are telling you do it.
史蒂芬·史密斯：我觉得这就是梭罗等人面临的一个问题。他们反抗着自己觉得不公正的法律以及一些有违民权的行径，比如越南战争中的举措。不过《申辩篇》中也有一个问题，那就是柏拉图没有清楚地阐明，这些反抗措施在什么情况下是正当的、什么情况下又不是。当我们被要求做某件事情的时候，追随马丁·路德·金和甘地的观点显然并不难。但在别的情况下可能就会更复杂些，比如一个更有争议的情况，那就是当国家或权力机关要求一个人去做某件事时，这个人却以这么做有违内心良知为由拒绝了这一要求。
Steven Smith: What about the Kentucky clerk who refused to issue licenses to gay couples on the grounds that this violated her conscience or her right of conscience to do something. We were outraged at that. Do your job, we said that’s your job. You can’t. Who are you to put your own private conscience, you know, before the law? But that’s also, you know, when is conscience the voice of principle?When is it a mask for self-interest and prejudice? And that’s why it’s such a slippery slope in many ways that Socrates invokes.
史蒂芬·史密斯：肯塔基州的政府职员拒绝向同性恋伴侣发放结婚证书，理由是不能昧着自己的良心。然而这惹怒了我们。我们会说，干好你的活，这可是你的工作，你不能这样。你竟然胆敢把自己的良心置于法律之上，你当你是谁啊？所以问题来了，个人良知什么时候才是反抗现有规则的理由，什么时候又会成为满足一己私欲和维护偏见的幌子？这就是苏格拉底的思想漏洞所引发的滑梯谬误。
Zachary Davis: It does seem the core or a core theme of the Apology is about change versus the status quo. And what’s interesting is the youth are attracted to Socrates, and like most youth, they’re interested in changing things a little from the way that their parents have arranged society. But, Socrates, as you mentioned, in a way, it is a negation philosophy. It’s we can know nothing. The pursuit itself is all there is. And if you’re the mayor of the city, what kind of program is that?
扎卡里·戴维斯：《申辩篇》的核心话题似乎是“变革还是维持现状”。有意思的是，年轻人似乎都被苏格拉底的观点所吸引，他们想要变革，希望能稍稍改变父母那辈制定的社会规则。不过正如您所说，苏格拉底的思想从某种程度上看是一种否定哲学。他认为我们可能一无所知，探索真理就是我们要做的全部事情。而且假如你是市长，你又会作何计划？
Steven Smith: Right. Exactly. Yeah. You still have to pick up the trash. You have to be responsible for all kinds of things. This is why in many ways, the Apology taken by itself, although we can certainly do that, is really incomplete until we put it with the dialogue which was intended to be paired and that’s the Crito.
史蒂芬·史密斯：嗯。你还是要摆平各种麻烦，对各种事情负责。这就是为什么在很多情况下，我们都会觉得《申辩篇》本身不够完整。不过当我们把它和对应的另一篇文章，也就是《克里托篇》放在一起的时候，完整性会好很多。
Why didn’t Socrates escape from prison?
苏格拉底为什么不越狱？
Zachary Davis: The Crito is another Platonic dialogue, centered around a conversation between a man named Crito, a follower of Socrates, and Socrates himself. It takes place in Socrates’s jail cell following the trial. Crito tells Socrates that he’s going to help him escape.
扎卡里·戴维斯：《克里托篇》是柏拉图的另一篇对话体文章，围绕着苏格拉底与他的追随者克里托之间的对话展开。审判后，克里托来到了苏格拉底的牢房，说要帮他越狱。
Steven Smith: And Socrates refuses to do it. He refuses to do it. And he gives Crito a number of reasons, very powerful for reasons for why he’s not going to escape. Haven’t the laws raised us? He said, the laws of the city. They’ve raised us. They’ve made us who we are. Don’t we owe them than an obligation not to break them? Isn’t it a question of piety?
史蒂芬·史密斯：苏格拉底拒绝越狱。他给了克里托许多理由，有力地解释了为什么自己不愿意逃跑。他问道，法律是否也曾滋养我们？城邦的法律也曾养育过我们，造就了今天的我们。我们难道不应当心存感激，觉得有义务遵循法律吗？这不也关乎虔诚吗？
Steven Smith: In fact, the laws are like our parents. They have kind of created our character. They’ve made us who we are. We owe them a kind of filial piety not to break laws. Don’t make me do this, he says. And he’s willing to stay and drink the hemlock. But there’s also a sense that he doesn’t want to set a bad example for people who aren’t going to be philosophers. This friend of his, Crito, is no philosopher by a long stretch. He doesn’t really gets it. He’s seems to be attracted to Socrates， but he doesn’t get it.
史蒂芬·史密斯：其实法律就像我们的父母一样，造就了我们的个性，造就了我们的今天。我们应当心存感激，虔诚地遵守法律。所以苏格拉底说，不要让我违背法律，我甘愿待在牢里喝下毒酒。他这么做还有另一个原因——那就是他不想为不会成为哲学家的那些人们树立坏榜样。他的朋友克里托一直都不是哲学家，他还没有真正明白哲学。他虽然被苏格拉底的思想深深吸引，但还没有真正明白。
Steven Smith: And Socrates doesn’t want to help him become a lawbreaker. So he gives him a story, a very in many ways a powerful story about why the laws should never be broken. Why we should never dissent from the laws? Doing so is like disobeying our parents and our other ancestors.
史蒂芬·史密斯：苏格拉底不想让他违背法律。于是他给了克里托一套说辞，有力地说服他为什么从很多方面看永远都不要违背法律。苏格拉底说，为什么永远都不要违背法律？因为违背法律就像是在背叛我们的父母和祖先。
Zachary Davis: Although the majority of Athenians saw Socrates as a threat to society, Socrates believed he was doing the public a service. He believed in the laws of society and was carrying out his mission, given to him by the Oracle, to awaken the public from their deep sleep. He cared about the future of Athens.
扎卡里·戴维斯：尽管多数雅典人认为苏格拉底威胁着雅典社会的稳定，但苏格拉底认为自己是在为公众服务。他相信雅典的法律，履行着神谕指示他的使命，那就是将民众从沉睡中唤醒。他着实关心着雅典的未来。
Steven Smith: The question in a way that runs throughout the Apology is how will citizens of the next generation be educated? Who has the right to educate? Is it the poets who might say claim to speak for, the older tradition, the gods, the heroes of Homer and the Iliad and the Odyssey, and Hesiod and the like? Or is it philosophy? Is it the philosophers who will argue on the basis of some kind of rationality or on some grounds of sufficient reason, who will not be swayed by song, by stories, by fables, by the gods, but claim to re-educate society on the basis of the kind of reason alone.These issues are still with us. They have not been totally resolved by any means.
史蒂芬·史密斯：《申辩篇》全篇都贯穿着这几个问题：要如何教育下一代公民？谁有权来教导他们？应当是诗人还是哲学家？诗人声称代表了古老传统、代表了诸神、代表了荷马和赫西俄德笔下的英雄人物。而哲学家则基于理性与充分推断来阐明观点，不会被诗歌、故事、寓言、神灵之词而左右。他们声称将仅仅基于理性推断重新教育全社会。《申辩篇》的这些问题仍然适用于当下，我们还没有找到任何方法来彻底解决它们。
Zachary Davis: If Socrates is the first to really ask how to live a good life, is it fair to characterize previous ways of thinking about that question as sort of nonsensical, that will we live the way we live? There’s just customs that we follow. We don’t think about them because they were given to us. Is the big distinction, he just is willing to question the way society and human life is ordered?
扎卡里·戴维斯：如果说苏格拉底是第一个真正思考如何过好一生的人，那我们可否将此前对这个问题的思考看作无稽之谈？此前人们仅仅觉得按照自己的方式过就好，我们只需要遵守习俗即可。我们不会思考这些习俗，因为外界要求我们按这些来。而苏格拉底乐于质疑社会以及人们生活的秩序，这算不算很大的不同？
Steven Smith: I think it’s a very good way of putting it. Socrates asks the question, is there a best way of life? And I think that’s right. He’s willing to break with custom. And I think it’s largely what drove that charges against him. His challenges of the customary which includes the gods, to be sure, beliefs about the gods, he’s willing to challenge that and ask, is there a single best way of life for all human beings? Everywhere and always. And that’s a revolution. That’s a revolutionary idea.
史蒂芬·史密斯：我觉得这么说很对。苏格拉底问，有没有什么最好的度过一生的方式？我觉得这无可厚非。他确实乐于打破陈规旧俗，这很大程度上就是他被人指控的原因。他挑战了对神灵的信仰，也乐于这么做。他问道，有没有什么最好的方式，可以让所有人都能很好地度过一生？他随时随地、永无休止地发问着。这可谓是一场变革，一场思想上的变革。
Zachary Davis: Socrates constantly questioned the conventional ideas of his day. He challenged the leaders of Athens who he thought blindly perpetuated old traditions and old thought. His influence resonates throughout history, and his impact has inspired not only Western philosophy, but also social rights movements. As societies evolve, this clash of old thought and new thought continues. But it is precisely at this clashing point that the seeds of change are sown.
扎卡里·戴维斯：苏格拉底不断质疑当时的传统观念。他诘问了雅典统治者，认为他们盲目延续了旧传统和旧思想。他的思想在历史长河中一直引发着共鸣，不仅仅推动了西方哲学的发展，也推动了社会民权运动的进行。社会仍在发展，新旧思想仍然继续碰撞着。但正是在这样的碰撞中，思想变革的种子悄然播下。
