Machiavelli’s political life
马基雅维利的政治生涯
Zachary Davis: I don’t remember exactly the first time I heard the phrase “Machiavellian”, but I’m pretty sure it was when I was watching some kind of show or movie about a political figure who was essentially willing to kill someone to get what he wanted. It was clear that “Machiavellian” basically meant that the ends justify the means.
扎克里·戴维斯：我不记得自己具体是什么时候听到“马基雅维利主义的”这个词，但我很确定那时我正在看一个节目或电影，里面讲了一个政治人物不惜杀人来得到自己想要的东西。而“马基雅维利主义”这个词显然意味着：只要目的正确，可以不择手段。
Zachary Davis: The term “Machiavellian” comes from the ideas first presented in a book called The Prince written by Italian diplomat and philosopher Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli in 1513.He wrote the book as an advice guide for young rulers on how to be successful leaders. It was written for a private audience and wasn’t published publicly until after his death, yet it became his most famous and influential work.
扎克里·戴维斯：词语“马基雅维利主义的”源于一本书中首次提出的观点，这本书便是意大利外交家和哲学家尼科洛·迪·贝尔纳多·代·马基雅维利于1513年写的《君主论》。他写这本书的目的是教导年轻的统治者如何成为出色的领袖。这本书是马基雅维利私下为一位读者写的，直到他去世后才公开出版。不过，它却成为了他最著名、最有影响力的作品。
James Hankins: It was his first work of political theory. Actually, it’s his first major work at all. He was 44 when he wrote it, and he had never written anything that caught anybody’s attention before that. He’d written some poetry and some reports and advice and so forth, but this is the first work of political theory. I’m James Hankins. I’m Professor of History at Harvard and a student of the Renaissance for the last 40 some years.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：这是他的第一部政治理论著作。实际上，这是他的第一部重要作品。他写这本书的时候已经四十四岁了。在此之前，他从没有写过什么引起别人注意的东西。他写过一些诗歌、一些报告和建议书等等，但这是他的第一部政治理论著作。我是詹姆斯·汉金斯，是哈佛大学的历史学教授。在过去的四十多年里，我一直热衷于研究文艺复兴。
Zachary Davis: Someone who is “Machiavellian” typically does whatever it takes to get what they want, even if it means straying away from the moral path.
扎克里·戴维斯：一个“马基雅维利主义的”的人往往会不惜一切代价去得到他们想要的东西，即使有违道德也在所不惜。
James Hankins: Machiavellism is accused of being amoral. But what it really is is a different construction of morality. It’s what we call today “utilitarianism,” or that is, a moral course of action is one that brings about the desired effect. It’s the effect, it’s the outcome that has to be moral. But how you get to the moral end is something that you will not achieve through moral means necessarily.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：马基雅维利主义被人斥为没有道德感。但事实上，它意味着一种截然不同的对道德观念的建构，也就是我们如今说的“功利主义”，认为能带来预期效果的行动方案，才可被称为是“道德的”。效果和结果必须是道德的，至于如何达到道德的目的，并不一定要采用道德的手段。
Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor James Hankins to discuss Niccolò Machiavelli’s The Prince.
扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和詹姆斯·汉金斯教授一起讨论马基雅维利的《君主论》。
Zachary Davis: Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli was born in Florence, Italy, in 1469. For three hundred years, Florence had been an independent republic, but soon before Machiavelli’s birth, the Medici family came to power. The Medici were bankers, as well as patrons of many famous artists, architects, and thinkers, including Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Raphael, and Botticelli. This was a time of intellectual rebirth and artistic flourishing now known as the Italian Renaissance—in a large part thanks to the Medici’s patronage.
扎卡里·戴维斯：1469年，尼科洛·迪·贝尔纳多·代·马基雅维利在意大利佛罗伦萨出生。三百年来，佛罗伦萨一直是一个独立的共和国。但在马基雅维利出生前不久，美第奇家族开始掌权。美第奇家族从事银行业，同时也资助着许多著名艺术家、建筑师和思想家，包括达·芬奇、米开朗基罗、拉斐尔和波提切利。这是一个思想重生和艺术繁荣的时代，如今被称为意大利文艺复兴时期。而文艺复兴很大程度上得益于美第奇家族的资助。
Zachary Davis: Machiavelli received a humanist education. This revival of studying classical antiquity was a defining characteristic of the Italian Renaissance. In addition to his humanist education, Machiavelli also studied mathematics and business. He spent some time in Rome as a banker, and returned to Florence in 1494.
扎克里·戴维斯：马基雅维利接受了人文主义教育。这种研究古典作品的复古风潮是意大利文艺复兴的一个鲜明特征。除了接受人文主义教育，马基雅维利还学习了数学和商学。他在罗马当了一段时间的银行家，于1494年回到佛罗伦萨。
Zachary Davis: Machiavelli returned to Florence during a turbulent time. France was invading Italy. King Charles VIII was leading an army to conquer Naples and had to pass through Florence on his way there. The ruler of Florence at the time was Piero di Lorenzo de’ Medici, now known as Piero the Unfortunate.
扎克里·戴维斯：马基雅维利回到佛罗伦萨时，时局动荡不安。法国正在入侵意大利。法王查理八世正率军征服那不勒斯，而佛罗伦萨则是他的必经之地。当时佛罗伦萨的统治者是皮耶罗·迪·科西莫·德·美第奇，如今被人们称为“不幸者皮耶罗”。
Zachary Davis: Without consulting the rest of the Florentine government, Piero met with King Charles VIII and accepted an unfavorable peace treaty. Upon returning to Florence, the public was outraged and kicked him and his family out of the city. The Medici remained in exile from Florence for the next 18 years.
扎克里·戴维斯：皮耶罗没有征求佛罗伦萨议会其他成员的意见，擅自会见了法王查理八世，接受了一个不利于佛罗伦萨的和平条约。回到佛罗伦萨后，民众非常愤怒，将他和他的家人驱逐出了佛罗伦萨。在接下来的十八年里，美第奇家族一直流亡在外。
Zachary Davis: In their absence, a Dominican preacher named Girolamo Savonarola stepped in, restored the republic, and took over the rulership of Florence. In 1497, Savonarola was excommunicated from Florence by the pope.After Savonarola, Italian statesman Piero Soderini stepped in as the new leader of the Republic of Florence. It was during this time that Machiavelli got involved in the Florentine government.
扎克里·戴维斯：在这期间，道明会修士吉吉罗拉莫·萨沃纳罗拉掌权，佛罗伦萨恢复了共和制。1497年，萨沃纳罗拉被教皇革除教籍。之后，意大利政治家皮耶罗·索代里尼上台，成为佛罗伦萨共和国的新领导人。马基雅维利就是在这个时期步入了佛罗伦萨政坛。
James Hankins: He was what’s called “the second chancellor of Florence”, which meant he was like the Assistant Secretary of State. But the Secretary of State, who was a man named Adriana, is a classical humanist, former professor in the university. He had gout, and he couldn’t move around too much. So, Machiavelli is always being sent off. So, he has tremendous experience as a diplomat. He goes to Germany, he goes to France. He’s all over, he’s in Milan, and he’s in Venice. So, he knows the players, and he’s seen a lot.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他担任了佛罗伦萨第二国务厅长官，类似于国务卿。但真正担任国务卿的人名叫阿德里亚纳。他是一个古典人文主义者，以前是大学教授。他患有痛风病，不能走动太多。于是他总是派马基雅维利出访。于是马基雅维利积累了丰富的外交经验，去了德国、法国、米兰、威尼斯。他见过很多政治人物，对他们也很了解。
Zachary Davis:This was a particularly formative time for Machiavelli. One of the most influential things he saw was the actions of the cruel and vicious politician Cesare Borgia. Borgia was a politician in northern Italy. He was planning a conquest of Tuscany, and the Florentine government wanted to keep an eye on him.
扎克里·戴维斯：这是马基雅维利思想形成的重要时期。对他影响最大的一件事，是恺撒·博尔吉亚这位残忍且恶毒的政客的所作所为。博尔吉亚是意大利北部的政治家，当时正计划征服托斯卡纳。佛罗伦萨议会想要掌握他的动向。
James Hankins: So, they send out Machiavelli, you know, as part diplomat, part spy to see what’s going on with Cesare Borgia. At first, Machiavelli is absolutely revolted because he’s a typical Florentine early in his career. He says, “Borgia doesn’t think, he doesn’t talk. He just does.”
詹姆斯·汉金斯：于是他们派马基雅维利作为外交官和间谍去恺撒·博尔吉亚跟前打探一番。马基雅维利一开始对博尔吉亚厌恶极了，因为他本人在职业生涯的初期是一个非常典型的佛罗伦萨人。他说：“恺撒·博尔吉亚不动脑子也不说话，说做就做。”
James Hankins: And he, Borgia, you know, does all these incredibly immoral things, and Machiavelli is still worrying about that sort of thing. But after a while, he starts to admire Cesare Borgia, and he says “This guy really gets results, right? It’s unorthodox. You know, if this were happening in Florence, we’d have, you know, a debate about what to do that went on for months, and then we couldn’t make up our mind. But this guy just makes up his mind in an instant, and he does it and it works.” So, he really admires action and instant decision.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：博尔吉亚干尽了坏事，所以马基雅维利才会这么抵触他。但相处了一会后，他开始佩服起了博尔吉亚，说：“这家伙确实能做成事啊。他做事情从来不管什么规矩。一件事如果发生在佛罗伦萨，我们会花一个月去辩论要做什么，迟迟难以下决定。但这个家伙一下子就下了决定，按自己的想法做了，也成功了。”他佩服的是这种行动力和决策效率。
Zachary Davis: Witnessing Borgia’s tactics first-hand was a turning point for Machiavelli. He began to formulate new theories on how one should rule over a society. Meanwhile, the Medici family had made their way back into Florence, regained power, and once again, ended the republic. While they were in exile, Machiavelli was working under the rulership of Piero Soderini who was for the republic of Florence. This didn’t sit well with the Medici family and after about a year they falsely accused Machiavelli of trying to restore the republic. They felt he was too close with Soderini and was a potential threat to the Medici dynasty.
扎克里·戴维斯：亲眼见证了博尔吉亚的策略之后，马基雅维利的思想发生了巨大的转折。他开始思考关于个体如何统治社会的新理论。与此同时，美第奇家族回到了佛罗伦萨，重掌大权，佛罗伦萨的共和制再次结束。在美第奇家族流亡期间，马基雅维利在维护共和制的皮耶罗·索代里尼手下任职，这让美第奇家族非常不满。大约一年后，他们诬陷马基雅维利试图恢复共和制度。他们觉得他和索代里尼走得太近，对美第奇王朝是个潜在的威胁。
James Hankins: Machiavelli was publicly denounced in the streets. There was a town crier who went around on horseback saying, “Machiavelli is,” you know, “Machiavelli is considered a treasonous man.” He was taken into custody. He was tortured, as people were in those days, and eventually let go and sent into exile. Or…not very far into exile, but into exile. He was not allowed to come back to the city. Let’s put it that way.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：马基雅维利在街上被公开指责。镇上的传令兵骑着马四处宣扬：“马基雅维利是一个叛国者。”于是，他被拘留了，像同时代的很多人一样被严刑拷打，最后被放了出来，流放在外。不过美第奇家族没有把他流放得很远，只是不允许他回到城内。
Zachary Davis: So, Machiavelli moved into his family’s estate just outside the city. He spent his days studying and writing political treatises, but he wanted more than anything to return to politics. To smooth over relations with the Medici, he decided to write a book for the rulers of Florence. The book was based on a type of book called “mirrors for princes”.
扎卡里·戴维斯：马基雅维利搬到了城外家族的庄园里。他整天都在学习、撰写政治论文， 但他更想重返政坛。为了修复与美第奇家族的关系，他决定为佛罗伦萨的统治者写一本书。这本书是基于一种叫“君主明鉴类”的书来写的。
A mirror of prince
君主明鉴
James Hankins: That’s the genre. It’s called “a mirror of prince”. And the mirror of prince basically tells the ruler how to acquire the virtues that will enable him to run a state well.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：这种类型的书叫“君主明鉴”，主要是在告诉统治者如何培养有利于他管理好国家的美德。
Zachary Davis: “Mirrors for princes” were a genre of political writing written from the early middle ages through the Renaissance. It was something of an instructional manual for new kings and rulers. Machiavelli’s The Prince takes this genre in a new direction.
扎克里·戴维斯：“君主明鉴”是中世纪早期到文艺复兴时期的一种政治作品类型，用于指导新任国王和统治者。马基雅维利的《君主论》将这个类型的作品引入了一个新的方向。
James Hankins: Well, it’s an advice book—this is one way of putting it. Butthe advice book tells you how to win, how to be effective. So he, in a way, is inventing a genre. There’s a long, big literature about the relationship between Machiavelli’s Prince and other earlier mirrors of princes. But he’s doing something that’s very original.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：可以说，这是一本建言献策的书，告诉你怎么获胜、怎么起效果。所以从某种程度上看，马基雅维利开创了一种新的文体。有一篇很长的文献便讲了马基雅维利的《君主论》和其他早期君主明鉴之间的关系。但马基雅维利的书可以说是开创性的。
Zachary Davis: One difference between Machiavelli’s work and earlier mirrors of princes was the language.
扎卡里·戴维斯：马基雅维利的《君主论》和早期的君主明鉴之间的一大区别是语言。
James Hankins: It’s written in Italian, which is an important point because most of these mirrors of princes that I talked about, these how-to-be-a-great-prince book that was written by the humanists, they’re all written in Latin. And it’s, the Medici princes could both read Latin. They were educated well, but nevertheless, he didn’t want them struggling over irregular verbs. Right? He, he wanted them to be able to read this.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：它是用意大利语写的。这一点很重要，因为那些早期的君主明鉴、那些教导君主成为明君的书都是用拉丁语写的。美第奇家族的统治者们受过良好的教育，既能读懂意大利语，也能读懂拉丁语。不过马基雅维利还是不想让他们被拉丁语的动词变位所困扰，希望他们能更方便地读懂这本书。
James Hankins: And it’s a very powerful treatise. It’s not actually much classical stuff in it. You know, typically mirrors of princes would be constantly bringing up classical examples, Greeks and Romans and Scipio and Pompey and Caesar, and they would be drawing lessons from their behavior. But, but Machiavelli does not spend much time on that. Instead, he focuses on recent history. He’s writing in Italian, and it’s got a patina of classical knowledge, but it’s also constantly pulling out the rug from the classics.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：这本著作非常强大，里面没有很多古典的东西。传统的君主明鉴往往会举古典时期的例子，如古希腊人、古罗马人、大西庇阿、庞培和凯撒，让读者从他们的行为中吸取教训。但马基雅维利并没有花太多篇幅在这上面。相反，他把重点放在近代史上。这本书是用意大利语写的，有着古典知识的外衣，内里却从古典著作中抽离开来。
Zachary Davis: The Renaissance was in part a return to the classics. The teachings of ancient Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle were brought back into the education system and people were schooled in the humanist way of thinking. But Machiavelli, who also had this education, thought this made for bad leaders. So, what was the view before that Machiavelli seemed to be departing from?
扎克里·戴维斯：文艺复兴在一定程度上是古典学的复兴。柏拉图、亚里士多德等古希腊哲学家的教诲被带回教育系统，人们接受着人文主义式的教育。但同样接受过这种教育的马基雅维利却认为，这样做会成为差劲的领导者。马基雅维利试图要摆脱此前哪些观点呢？
James Hankins: Well, if you look at the ancient philosophers, Plato and Aristotle and the Stoics, and the chief schools, which were tremendously influential for the rest of Western civilization, still influential today, there was a belief that the laws of nature and the laws of morality were really the same thing.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：如果我们回过头去看柏拉图、亚里士多德、以及斯多葛派等古典时期哲学家，这些对西方文明产生了巨大影响、并且直至今日依然十分重要的哲学家，你会发现他们认为，自然法则和道德法则是一回事。
Zachary Davis: For the ancient philosophers, the laws of nature didn’t mean gravity and thermodynamics. It meant the core virtues that they believed all humans should live by.
扎克里·戴维斯：对于古典时期的哲学家来说，自然法则并不是重力和热力学，而是核心的美德。他们认为所有人都应该恪守这些美德。
James Hankins: The idea is that the laws of nature and the laws of morality are aligned so that the virtues, the traditional virtues, are essentially nature’s directions for how to live a happy life. And if you don’t live the virtues, you’re going to make yourself miserable.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：自然法则和道德法则是一致的，所以传统美德会带给你一条通往幸福生活的自然之路。如果你不恪守这些美德，就会过得很痛苦。
James Hankins: And that is what Machiavelli challenges. He’s not the first person to challenge it. In world history, there are other political thinkers in India and ancient China who do similar, make similar moves. But in the Western tradition, he’s really the first person to, to say that’s simply not the case, right? That if, any, any political leader who consistently follows the rules of morality will not be successful.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：这就是马基雅维利想要反驳的观点，但他不是第一个这么做的人。纵观整个世界史，印度、古代中国和其他地方的政治思想家也在做类似的事情。但在西方史中，他确实是第一个站出来说，自然法则和道德法则并不一致的人。他说，如果哪个政治领袖始终恪守美德，那他绝对不可能成功。
Zachary Davis: For Machiavelli, success means getting what you want.
扎卡里·戴维斯：对马基雅维利来说，成功就是得到你想要的东西。
James Hankins:In fact, Machiavelli goes further, and he says, “If you consistently apply the rules of morality, you will fail as a prince, right? That there is no way you can succeed.” The famous quotation, which is really the heart of his thinking and that which sounds most plausible to moderns, is in Chapter 15 of The Prince, where he says that the man who will take a vow of goodness in all things must necessarily come to grief among so many who are not good.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：事实上，马基雅维利还往前进了一步。他说：“如果你始终遵守种种道德规则，作为君主你就会失败，根本不可能成功。”在《君主论》第十五章中，他说，一个人若是发誓在所有事情上都一心向善，那就必然要在不善之人跟前遭遇不幸。这句话是马基雅维利思想的核心。
James Hankins: So, don’t be a sucker. That’s really, you could translate it that way very loosely. Don’t be a sucker. Nobody else is obeying the rules. If you obey the rules, you’ll end up under, trampled underfoot by all the people who are looking out for themselves. But this is a key point about Machiavelli, that he separates ethics and politics. He thinks that politics operates on different rules. And he says if you try to act according to moral rules, you will be a failure.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：所以简而言之，不要太老实。别人都不守规矩，如果你守规矩，就会被那些利己者踩在脚下。但马基雅维利有一个很关键的点，那就是他把伦理和政治分开了。他认为政治是在另一套规则下运作的，在政治上如果按照道德规则办事，你就会失败。
Zachary Davis: In The Prince, Machiavelli stresses the importance of being a ruler who is a strong military leader.
扎克里·戴维斯：在《君主论》中，马基雅维利强调了统治者很有必要成为一个强大的军事领袖。
James Hankins:He’s living the period when Italy is being conquered by foreign countries. In 1494, this most famous event in Renaissance history was the French coming into Italy and conquering the whole place and about six months. So, he thinks, “We have to be tough now. Forget about all this literature stuff. Forget about, you know, being good Christians. Let’s be strong. Let’s be effective political leaders.Let’s have a citizen militia like the Romans did, citizen armies like the Romans did, and be able to defend ourselves.”
詹姆斯·汉金斯：马基雅维利生活的那个时期，意大利被外敌入侵。1494年，发生了一件文艺复兴时期最著名的事件，那就是法国入侵意大利。之后有大概半年，法国都占领了整个意大利。所以马基雅维利觉得，他们现在必须要强硬起来，抛却古典文学中倡导的道德规则，不要再做本本分分的基督教徒，而是要成为强者，成为有力的政治领袖，要像罗马人一样，打造出强军劲旅来保家卫国。
James Hankins: That’s his primary objective: to create an Italy—and especially in Florence—that’s strong and can stand up to invaders. So, he’s a great believer in military strength, and you really kind of can’t understand what Machiavelli is doing in The Prince unless you understand his objective is to have strong princes, right?
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他的首要目标，便是让意大利——尤其是佛罗伦萨——拥有能抵御侵略的强大军事队伍。所以我们要知道，他推崇军事力量。如果你不知道这是他的目标，那你就无法理解他在《君主论》中写下的内容。
James Hankins: Mostly he’s talking about recent history and what has worked and what hasn’t worked in recent history. So, he talks a lot about his own experiences as a man of state. And that is what he’s offering the Medici. He says, “I have this experience. Not only do I have this experience. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, and I’ve thought about it. And I have a different understanding of what works.So you, you guys, Lorenzo and Giuliano, you’ve been taught by your teachers, your humanist teachers to be virtuous, and I’m going to tell you how it really works.”
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他主要谈了近期历史上的事情，讲了什么有用、什么没有用。他还谈了自己在政府任职时的一些经历，这也是他想让美第奇家族的人了解的。他说：“我有这些经验，不仅亲眼目睹了这些事，还认真思考了它们。对于什么有用，我有些不一样的观点。洛伦佐、朱利亚诺，你们的人文主义老师一直在教你们做一个有德行的人，而我要告诉你们什么真的有用。”
James Hankins: That’s the message of The Prince. Right? And he has these marvelous examples, which are also terrifying examples of how princes have behaved in the past very badly, but been successful as a result.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：这就是《君主论》要传递的信息。他举了这些不一般的、可怕的例子，例子里的君主行事很不道德，却大获成功。
To be loved or to be feared
为人所爱戴还是为人所惧惮
Zachary Davis: Machiavelli is building theories of ruling based on what he has witnessed firsthand.
扎克里·戴维斯：马基雅维利根据他亲眼目睹的情况构建了统治理论。
James Hankins: That’s what The Prince is about. It starts off in this very theoretical way. He talks about the forms of government and then he, but then he goes into a particular examples of things a prince should do and should not do.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：这就是《君主论》的内容。全书以理论开头，谈到了政体，然后举例阐明君主应当做什么、不应当做什么。
James Hankins: He’s trying to be theoretical at the beginning. But he says really there are only two forms of government: there’s republics and there’s princes. There’s one man rule and there’s power sharing. He doesn’t even think about the possibility of democratic government because he knows that all government’s oligarchical, right? He has an understanding that it’s always some people ruling other people.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他一开始就在讲理论。他说，其实仅仅存在两种政体——共和制和君主制。区别在于统治权由多人共享还是为一人独握。他甚至压根没考虑过可能会有民主制政府，因为他觉得所有政府都施行寡头政治，总是由少数人统治剩下的多数人。
James Hankins: So, he starts off with that, and then he tries to work through all the possibilities. Machiavelli’s mode of analysis is what we call a decision tree today. And he is presenting his case to the Medici, and he says, “Well, how should you behave in a variety of situations? Suppose you conquer a state with your own arms, you can do one set of things. If there’s a revolution and you have restored an oligarchy, there’s another set of things you can do. If you have conquered a state with other men’s arms,” he says, “you’re the weakest of all.”
詹姆斯·汉金斯：由此开始，他试图把所有可能的政体都分析一遍。马基雅维利的分析模式就是我们如今所说的“决策树”。他向美第奇家族介绍了自己的方案，说：那么在各种情况下你应当怎么做呢？如果你自己派兵征服了一个国家，你可以做这些事；如果爆发了革命，你恢复了寡头政治，那么你又可以做那些事；如果你用别人的兵征服了一个国家，那你是最弱的。”
James Hankins: Now, the Medici had conquered the state with other men’s arms, right? They used the Spanish army to conquer Florence. So, then Machiavelli talks about what they should do given the fact that they’re essentially extremely weak. They don’t have their own armies, they have other people’s armies, and they depend on mercenary pay, and how you can win the hearts of the locals.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：美第奇家族便用别人的兵征服了这个国家——他们用西班牙雇佣兵征服了佛罗伦萨。然后，马基雅维利谈到，由于他们本质上极其弱小，所以他们应该怎么做。他们没有自己的军队，只有别人的兵，依靠的是付给雇佣兵的报酬。他还谈到了要如何在当地笼络人心。
Zachary Davis:Machiavelli is writing this about a year after the Medici returned to Florence. They had no interest in continuing the republic of Florence. They want to turn it into a principality. But Machiavelli thinks this won’t be possible.
扎克里·戴维斯：马基雅维利是在美第奇家族回到佛罗伦萨一年后写这本书的。美第奇家族不想让佛罗伦萨继续做一个共和国，他们想把它变成一个公国。但马基雅维利认为这不可能。
James Hankins:So, one possible understanding of The Prince is that Machiavelli is telling these two young Medici that they should go into the papal states and found a principality there in a place that does not have deep republican traditions. And he gives some examples showing why it’s hard for a city with republican traditions to become a monarchy. So, he’s a republican. He still has those loyalties, but he also wants to impress the Medici with his tremendous insight into how to run a state.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：马基雅维利告诉这两个美第奇家族的小伙子，说他们应该去教皇国，在一个没有深厚共和制传统的地方建立一个公国。他还举了一些例子，说明为什么一个有共和制传统的城邦很难成为君主国。所以，他希望在佛罗伦萨保留共和制，仍然忠于共和制度，但他也想用他在国家管理方面的深刻洞察力来打动美第奇。
Zachary Davis: And what are some of the main pieces of advice that he gives to the Medici?
扎克里·戴维斯：他给了美第奇家族哪些主要建议？
James Hankins: Well, he plays with this famous question in Cicero’s book On Duties, which is a book that everybody had read in the Renaissance, right? So, everybody knows this famous passage where Cicero asks, “Is it better to be loved than feared?” And Cicero is a stoic, and he’s taking the view that it’s better to be loved than feared because that rulers who are feared don’t attract loyalty the way rulers that are loved. So, how do you become a loved ruler?
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他探讨了西塞罗在《论义务》一书中提出的著名问题。文艺复兴时期，大家都读过这本书，都知道这段非常有名的内容。西塞罗在书中问道：“为人所爱戴是否胜过为人所惧惮？”西塞罗认同斯多葛学派的观念，所以他的答案是肯定的。他认为为人所惧惮的统治者无法像受人爱戴的统治者那样让别人对自己忠心耿耿。那么如何成为一个受人爱戴的统治者呢？
James Hankins: Well, you don’t use coercion. You try to be virtuous. You try to set an example of justice. The more just and virtuous you are as a ruler, the less you have to be feared, the less you have to fear, and the more you are loved. So, the message of Cicero’s is to be a good ruler, be just, be merciful, be temperate. And you will be able to rule effortlessly without coercion. People will look up to you and say, “I’m so glad we have you as our ruler.” They will not want anybody else for their ruler.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：你不用胁迫他人，只须努力做一个有德行的人，树立一个正义的榜样。作为统治者，你越是公正、越是有德行，民众就越不会惧惮你，反而会更爱戴你。所以西塞罗的观点是，要想做一个好的统治者，就要公正、仁慈、温和。这样你无需逼迫民众，不费吹灰之力便可统治他们。人们会仰望你，说：“有你来做我们的统治者，真是太好了。”他们不会希望别人成为他们的统治者。
James Hankins: So, Machiavelli’s view of this is—very typically Machiavellian—that sometimes you want to be feared, sometimes you want to be loved, you know. You can’t make hard and fast rules. This is not moral philosophy. This is not, this is not strategy. It’s tactics, that morality is tactical. It’s never strategic for Machiavelli.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：而马基雅维利的观点就很有他个人的色彩。他认为你有时候想为人所惧惮，有时候又想为人所爱戴。你不能草率地制定硬性规则。在他看来，这不是道德哲学，也不是战略。对马基雅维利而言，道德问题永远是战术问题，而不是战略问题。
James Hankins: Meaning that you can’t consistently be moral and expect to succeed. But what you really don’t want to be is hated, right? Hate is not what you want. And that’s the real mistake that tyrants make. Because the prince is not a tyrant, right? This is one of the important points to understand about Machiavelli’s Prince.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：你不能一直守着道德准则，还希望自己能成功。但最重要的是，你不想被人所憎恨。仇恨非你所愿，暴君才会犯下这种大错，但君主不是暴君——认识这一点对理解《君主论》很重要。
James Hankins: Many people think that the prince is just a synonym for tyrant. And that’s not what Machiavelli thinks. Machiavelli generally thinks a tyrant is someone who’s stupid, who just tries to satisfy themselves all the time, who uses their power for their personal gain and doesn’t have any careful thought about how you keep power. And tyrants usually don’t last very long, and they make themselves hated because they abuse their power to satisfy their own desires.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：很多人以为君主只是暴君的代名词，但马基雅维利不这么认为。马基雅维利认为暴君是一个蠢货，仅仅一直想要满足自己，利用自己的权力为自己谋取私利，从来不认真思考如何维系权力。暴君的统治往往不长久，因为他们滥用权力来填补欲壑，招来了民众的厌恶。
James Hankins: What you want is a prince, and the prince is someone who will most of the time be good. Okay? Because good works most of the time. And you certainly don’t want people thinking you’re evil because that will make you hated. But at certain times, you have to do evil, and then you do it very quickly, and you can either do it secretly, which is a form of fraud, or you can do extremely publicly.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：但你想做的是君主，君主大部分时间都很正派。你当然不希望民众觉得你很邪恶，因为那样民众会憎恨你。但某些时候，你必须干些坏事。你可以瞒着民众，迅速且悄悄地做，也可以大张旗鼓地做。
James Hankins:But then what you have to do is snap back into the typical attitudes of the moral prince, right? So, you have to scare the hell out of people, basically, to make them realize you’re capable of. But then you go back to being moral and acting in your normal role. And then people are reassured, but they also have in the back of their mind what that guy can do if you get on the wrong side of him. Right? So, it’s a very strategic use of evil.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：然后你再迅速变回正人君子的模样。你必须把民众吓得屁滚尿流，让他们意识到你有能力使用雷霆手段。然后你再变回平常那个正派的样子，民众们就放心了。但他们也会暗自思忖，万一自己被你讨厌了，你会做什么。这种运用邪恶一面的方式很有策略性。
Influences of the book
《君主论》的影响
Zachary Davis: What’s the immediate, um, reception to this work as it eventually gets published and spread among, I suppose, the parts of Italy and Europe? And what’s the story you would tell about its enduring influence on Western government life and Western politics, Western culture?
扎克里·戴维斯：这本书在意大利和欧洲部分地区出版并传播后，读者反响如何？它对西方政治和文化有哪些持久的影响呢？
James Hankins: Other people in his immediate circle read the manuscript copy of The Prince, and that’s how eventually it made its way into print. One of his followers had it printed after his death. Once it was printed, it was extremely popular. All of his political works are very popular. I think he is up there with Aristotle as one of the two most popular political authors of the 16th century, and his influence continues into the 17th century, 18th century. He was read by Frederick the Great in the 18th century. His motto “toujours l’audace”, “always be audacious” is really a kind of Machiavellian slogan. And he’s read by the Founding Fathers. He’s read, of course, in modern times as a kind of self-help book for politicians.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他圈子里有人看到了《君主论》的手稿，手稿这才得以出版。在马基雅维利去世后，他的一位追随者将其交付出版，书籍一出版便广受欢迎。马基雅维利的所有政治作品都非常受欢迎。他和亚里士多德是十六世纪最受追捧的两位政治作家。他的影响力还一直持续到了十七、十八世纪。十八世纪的腓特烈大帝就读过他的作品。这位君主的座右铭“永远大胆”便是一句马基雅维利式的口号。美国国父们也读过马基雅维利的书。在现代，政治家们常常阅读它来提升自我。
James Hankins: So, he’s very popular. He was also considered an immoral writer right from the beginning. People had difficulty figuring out what he was up to because it’s a very difficult text to interpret in some ways. There were people like Cardinal Pole who thought that the work was a poison pill that Machiavelli hated the Medici. He wanted them to follow his advice so that they would fail. He was telling them things that wouldn’t work, because Reginald Pole being, Cardinal Pole being a very moral man, just couldn’t imagine that immorality would succeed.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：所以说，他很受欢迎。但从一开始，也有人觉得他是个道德败坏的作家。人们难以弄清他的目的，因为《君主论》从某些方面看很难读懂。红衣主教雷吉纳尔德·博勒等人认为，这部作品是痛恨美第奇家族的马基雅维利献给他们的一剂毒药。他献给他们一些行不通的计策，希望他们听从建议，这样他们就会失败。博勒很讲道德，所以他无法想象，做不道德的事竟然会成功。
James Hankins: But other people like, like Thomas Cromwell apparently did take the book very seriously and even may have used some of its prescriptions in his own career as Chancellor and Prime Minister of, of Henry the VIII. So, the book was eventually put on the list of prohibited books which didn’t really prevent its circulation very much. It was translated into many, many languages. It was translated into Latin. So, taking the road that Machiavelli himself didn’t go.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：托马斯・克伦威尔显然非常重视这本书，甚至在担任亨利八世的首席国务大臣时还运用了其中的一些方法。不过，这本书后来被列入禁书名单，但这并没有阻止它的传播。它被翻译成了多种语言，甚至还被翻译成了拉丁文——这可是马基雅维利写书时没有采用的语言。
James Hankins: There’s also a tradition called the arcana imperii, the secrets of empire, where you whispered in the ear of your ruler that certain things had to be done. And they weren’t strictly moral things, but if you wanted to keep yourself in power, you wanted to keep your state from collapsing, you had to do those things. So, it was Machiavellian advice, but hidden, as it were, or whispered in quiet in the ear of the prince. It’s not something you want to trumpet anywhere.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：那时还有一种传统叫“治国秘术”，就是在统治者耳边低语，告诉他必须做哪些事情。如果你要维系自己的统治权，不让国家分崩离析，你就必须做一些不那么道德的事情。这种马基雅维利主义的建议都悄悄回荡在君主耳边，你不会想要大肆宣扬它。
James Hankins: So, Machiavelli becomes a major influence in Anglo-American political theory and also in European political theory—less in European political theory than Anglo-American. And he is read by the English Republicans of the 17th century and American Republicans in the 18th century. He’s read as someone who understands the way states work and he’s read as an advocate of a strong executive, especially by the American founders.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：马基雅维利深刻影响了英美政治理论和欧洲政治理论，不过对英美的影响比对欧洲大陆的要大。他的著作被十七世纪的英国共和党人和十八世纪的美国共和党人所阅读。他本人也被视为一个了解国家运作方式、倡导强大行政权的人，美国国父们尤其这么认为。
James Hankins: And Machiavelli is often cited, or sometimes alluded to rather than cited as an advocate of a strong executive that can cut through any kind of legislative red tape and act as the head of the military, for example, and conduct diplomatic relations without being constrained by a lot of consultation with the Senate.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：人们常常援引他的说法，或是暗暗引用他的观念：他倡导建立一个强大的行政机构，强大到可以越过琐碎的官僚作风与繁文缛节，并统领全军，比如，可以在不受参议院束缚的情况下缔结外交关系。
Zachary Davis: Would it be fair to call Machiavelli the first political scientist, that he’s trying to develop a science of statecraft?
扎克里·戴维斯：我们可不可以把马基雅维利称作第一位政治学家？可不可以说他在建立一门关于国家政治的科学？
James Hankins:Yes, I think that’s fair. I mean, He’s someone who tries to reason out a course of action. And one of his beliefs is that, what makes him scientific is he believes that he can predict what’s going to happen if you do X, Y, or Z, that a lucid examination of the situation and the powers that you have, and the power that people have, and their interests, and your interests, you can tell what results your action will have in a particular field, and that can be reasoned. So, that’s a kind of scientific form of reasoning.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：我觉得可以。马基雅维利试图推导出做事流程。他相信，他的理论之所以科学，是因为他可以推测出如果你做了一、二、三这三件事，分别会出现什么情况。只要你审时度势，清楚地认识到自己手中权力、民众的权力和利益以及你自己的利益，你就可以知道你的行动在某一特定领域会有什么结果。这都是可以推导出来的。所以这是一种科学的推导方式。
James Hankins: Machiavelli believes that, in effect, he can tell the future and that will, that at least in a given situation, restricted situation, you can tell what the future will bring. And that’s a strong enough prediction that you can alter your behavior from moral to immoral on that basis.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：马基雅维利认为，他其实可以预知未来，至少在特定的情况下，他可以帮你预知未来的结果。这个预测非常强大，你可以基于它改变你的行为，由做道德的事转而去做不那么道德的事。
James Hankins: Because that’s, when you advocate immoral behavior, you always have to be sure that it’s going to be successful, right? So, where does that certainty come from? That doesn’t exist in pre-Machiavellian thought, the idea that we know that much about the future, that we can overrule our moral instincts in favor of some strategy that’s immoral. But Machiavelli thinks that you can be sure enough about the future, what will happen if you do X, that you must not do X or do Y instead, right, that you can make that kind of, you can construct the kind of decision tree and make a prediction of the future and therefore decide what you should do in those situations.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：因为当你做不道德的事情时，你要确保它会成功，对吧。那么如何确定事情能不能成呢？在马基雅维利之前，没有人思考过这个问题，没人想过我们可以预测未来、可以违背我们的道德天性去采取一些不道德的策略。但马基雅维利认为，你可以对未来足够了解，知道你做了第一件事会出现什么后果，然后你就不会规避它，改做第二件事。你可以画出决策树，对未来做预测，从而决定你在这些情况下应该怎么做。
James Hankins: Machiavelli himself is a terrible predictor of the future. His predictions for the future of military tactics, for example, are totally wrong. He predicted that ecclesiastical principalities could never be destroyed, could never lose power because they had the power of religion behind them, but, you know, by the end of the 1530s, half of or a third of the ecclesiastical principalities of Europe have been overthrown by Protestants. Right?
詹姆斯·汉金斯：不过，马基雅维利其实是一个非常糟糕的预言者。比如，他对未来军事战术的预测就完全错误。他预言天主教公国永远不会被推翻，永远不会大权旁落，因为他们背后有宗教的力量。但是到了16世纪30年代末，欧洲三分之一乃至一半天主教公国的统治都被新教徒推翻了。
James Hankins: And he makes all sorts of predictions that never come true. He tells the Medici that they can never turn Florence into a, into, into a principality because it has too deep republican traditions. But he’s wrong about that. The Medici founded the Duchy of Tuscany and later the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, which last down to the 19th century. So, you know, he, despite his claims of quasi-scientific certainty about the future, he wasn’t very good at predicting the future.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：他预测的很多事情都没实现。他告诉美第奇家族，他们永远不可能把佛罗伦萨变成一个公国，因为它有根深蒂固的共和制传统。但他预测错了。美第奇家族建立了托斯卡纳公国，后来又建立了托斯卡纳大公国，直到19世纪这个大公国的统治才正式告终。所以，尽管马基雅维利声称对可以对未来作出近乎科学的准确判断，但他并不擅长预测未来。
Zachary Davis: Could you summarize in one or two sentences, how did Machiavelli and The Prince change the world?
扎克里·戴维斯：您能不能用一两句话总结一下，马基雅维利和《君主论》如何改变了世界？
James Hankins: I think Machiavelli said what many people thought but felt that was immoral to say aloud. But the main thing that he does, I think, is that he teaches people that what is going to work and the rules of morality are different and that nature is different from the moral law. And that you cannot rely on nature to produce good results as a result of moral action. And that’s a very dangerous thought.
詹姆斯·汉金斯：我觉得马基雅维利说出了很多人的心声，但他们觉得这不道德，就不敢说出来。不过我认为，他做的最主要的事情，是告诉人们政治结果往往并不按道德规则走，自然情况也不同于道德法则。你不能仅仅按道德准则去办事，指望着好的结果会自然而然地出现。这个想法非常危险。
